chicofan
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 1821
NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
7/31/2006 3:43 AM
Well, more compelling evidence that the 0.400 sec. interval between the  yellow and the green is too long for the "fast reactors" and has turned the reaction time aspect of the race into a crap shoot instead of an athletic achievement in human performance.

Sears Point (Infineon) -
    Pro Stock Motorcycles - 5 red lights in 15 races in the finals including the Final!
    Pro Stock - 4 reds in 15 races.  These all appear to be legitimate quick reaction times, not "taking a shot at the tree" (aka guessing).

This is ridiculous and is unmercifully penalizing one of the basic aspects of a drag race - react as fast as you can!

It has been readily apparent for several years that the 0.400 sec. tree can be beaten by the quick reacting riders/drivers in these classes.  Why continue to perpetuate this travesty when the solution is easily accomplished by reducing it to 0.300 secs? 

Please get off the dime and fix it.  2 Cents [:twocents]

Thanks for listening....


karmis
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 927
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
7/31/2006 1:51 PM

I completly disagree with this. The fact is, EVERYONE is guessing on the tree. EVERYONE goes when the ambers come on. The trick with drag racing is DONT GO UNTIL THE LIGHT IS GREEN. If they red light, you dont change the light..you change the driver. If you change to accomidate the impatient drivers, you then are penalizing those who have their timing correct. What I mean is, if you speed it up by 100th to accomidate Angel whatshername, you are then causing someone who never redlights to be 100th slower...Your example there were 5 red lights in 15 races...that means 10 guys who followed the rules would themn be 100th late...does that seem fair?

Its very simple, here's the standard that has been working since the very beginning, let the crew cheifs figuer out how to work with it. Schumaker put Angel on that bike because her weight allowes them to fine tune the bike better than a larger rider...I guess they still have work to do...

Hey if ya red light, ya blew it, dont guess next time...wait until you see green...of course you will never win, but you wont red light...

Drivers need to adjust to rules, not rules adjusting to drivers....only a few drivers at that....

paldini
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 895
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
7/31/2006 8:34 PM
Gotta go with Karmis on this one.  The tree is the same for everyone.  In brackets, you get the counting down tree to set your rythm.  The pros know the duration of the amber and they are paid to hit the green at as close to .001 of the light as possible.  You jump, you lose.
Racnrick
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 20
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
7/31/2006 10:46 PM
I know there has been talk about it before, but I haven't heard anything about it lately, but I would like to see them change to a green light only start, no ambers, that way it would get back to the driver's ability and not thru a delay box, or people trying to second guess the lights. There would be no -.001 or -.002 redlights by someone trying to cut a good light, you would still have reaction time but it would off the green light. I think it would make better racing all the way around, there would be no chance of redlighting, unless the driver just totally messed up. Or, if both driver's redlight,  go with who ever redlights the worst would lose, that way the faster cars would not have the advantage over the slower car redlighting first and giving the race away.
chicofan
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 1821
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/1/2006 6:40 AM
Racnrick:
[snip]...but I would like to see them change to a green light only start, no ambers, that way it would get back to the driver's ability...

This would be another solution and I'd certainly go with that.  Basically, back to the flag drop in the old days.  And a good reaction time would be 0.400.  The 0.300 light is a step in that direction while retaining the yellow-green sequence the racers are used to.

It really is a pretty simple concept.  Should the tree interval discriminate against the driver/riders who have the quickest reaction time?  Shouldn't all the driver/riders be allowed to go up there and do the best they can do?  As an ex-drag racer and 50 yr. fan, I say the system should not foul the quickest reaction times and everybody should be allowed to do the best that they can.  To require that the driver/rider somehow should slow down their reaction time is opposite of what a racer should have to do, IMO.  Shakehead [:shakehead]

I would like to take the unnecessary randomness out of the start and get back to the fundamentals.  Straight up green light or 0.300, either one will accomplish the deed.  Best reaction + best driver + best vehicle = best all around.  Better reaction time + not so good driver/vehicle can beat a worse reaction time and the best driver/vehicle.  They call it a "hole shot".  They killed 5 out of 15 potential hole shots in the finals with a deficient tree interval, IMO.  Thumbs Down [:thumbdown]
karmis
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 927
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/3/2006 6:24 PM

Well we will have to agree to disagree...The only person that I see "killed" anything are the drivers/riders who jumped the start...its just that simple.

using your numbers, 10 out of 15 got it right...you dont penilize 10 on account of 5...

Its worked since thebeginning and I see no need to change something that has been flawless for 50 years...

Perhaps they shouldn't anticipate the green, that is what they are doing..guessing on the green...some just guess better than others...

 

chicofan
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 1821
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/4/2006 8:02 AM
Hmm..looks like other high profile people intimately involved in the sport think something should be done about the Pro Tree.  Here is an excerpt from Bob Frey's "Did You Know" piece of 7/5/06 published on Drag Race Central:
If red lights are going to be a factor in the car class imagine how important they will be in the motorcycle class for the rest of the year. Did you know that there have been more foul starts in the Pro Stock Motorcycle class already this year than there have been in the other three pro classes combined? Thirty fouls in the two-wheel class as opposed to twenty-eight in the other three pro classes. Something's got to be done about that. I don't know what or by whom it should be done but I know that it takes away a lot from the enjoyment of the class, at least for me....How about a three-tenths pro tree for the motorcycles? Just a thought..

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=117939

Racnrick
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 20
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/4/2006 1:11 PM

I agree this start system has been around for 50 years, BUT, it has been changed when NHRA switched to the LED lights. Thats when everyone in all the PRO class's (.400) had to adjust to them. One of the reasons NHRA switched to them was so they won't burn out as many lights from the "vibration" of the fuel cars. Everyone knows the LED lights are quicker to light that the old incandescent bulbs, and the drivers are seeing the amber light quicker, almost instantly. We are mainly only seeing this problem on the PRO Tree, and not so much on the Sportsman Tree, because in the Sportsman class's (T/C, S/C, S/P) they can change the delay box to adjust for the LED's, in the Pro class's they don't have that option, it has to be adjusted by the driver. So, maybe when NHRA changed to the LED lights they should have adjusted the tree at the same time to keep it the "same" as it was for most of the 50 years that it did work flawlessly!

karmis
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 927
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/5/2006 1:35 AM
I still say an overwelming majority of drivers/riders are not redlighting...if they can do it right, the rest need to adjust.Part of being a good driver/rider IS timing the light. If the cant time it right...thats the driver/riders problme, not the tree...
Kingnitro
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 506
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/5/2006 12:24 PM
Didn't NHRA shorten the Tree once when the Pro stockers had this problem what 5-6 years ago?
wkmac
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 1081
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/7/2006 9:38 AM

Kingnitro:
Didn't NHRA shorten the Tree once when the Pro stockers had this problem what 5-6 years ago?

 

No, I think they just told them to adapt to the new LED lights and they did. Even though I'm not for monkeying with the tree I can see the 2 wheelers point.  PS cars are heavier so therefore it is easier to slow down the chassis reaction but the 2 wheelers are very light and although I know little about their chassis dynamics, just on weight and wheelbase alone I would think this to be pretty tough to do.  With computers now, it would be possible to have a different tree sequence for the bikes than you do for the cars so we may see that at some point if the solution is not easy to obtain.  Last thing NHRA wants is to put a class up there where 1/3 to 1/2 of the races are decided at the start with redlights.  What they really need is a series of double redlight fouls at consecutive races and then the attention of NHRA will come to bare but until that starts to happen, I'm not sure you'll see anything at all happen.

Kingnitro
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 506
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/7/2006 1:28 PM
No, NHRA DID adjust the tree. At the time only the PS cars were having the problem. Up till this year the Bikes weren't having this problem.
wkmac
Joined: 7-21-2006
Posts: 1081
Re: NHRA - Please Shorten the Pro Tree!
8/8/2006 2:15 PM

Hey King, what did they do to the tree at the time?  I mean I know they went to the LED lights but what did they do different to compensate for the PSers?

Enquiring minds want to know!

You know for fun and to get the ole' goat worked up, you could say NHRA required all Mopar enties to run Ford engines!

As Bugs Bunny would say, "Ain't I a Stinker!"