Jox Cousteau:

The hypocrisy that is the IRL never ceases to amaze me.

Call it what you want, the IRL will be around long after CCWS finished.  CCWS is merely the carcass of the great CART organization who were unsuccessful at trying to stomp out the IRL.

I'll bet the Champ Car people are praying hard and loud that the IRL and NASCAR don't get any closer together.

Oval Fan:

Jox Cousteau:

The hypocrisy that is the IRL never ceases to amaze me.

Call it what you want, the IRL will be around long after CCWS finished.  CCWS is merely the carcass of the great CART organization who were unsuccessful at trying to stomp out the IRL.

I'll bet the Champ Car people are praying hard and loud that the IRL and NASCAR don't get any closer together.

Certainly one lesson in American business history is that mediocrity prevails.

Decades ago, Harley Davidson was known as the inferior product to Indian. Then Indian fell prey to one of the largest embezzlement scandals in American business history. The company was left bankrupt.

Harley Davidson came in purchased their competitor and shut Indian down

For the next 50 years the American consumer was  only  left one choice. The inferior product.

You like to make light of how C.A.R.T failed to kill The IRL. In fact it had been done. Just prior to the Texas debacle The IRL was on verge of collapse. Toyota and Honda then switched and kept The IRL afloat..

C.A.R.T untill year 1999 still had better TV ratings than Nascar. Two things happened to launch Nascar to the fore front. The loss of the ABC contract by C.A.R.T. and The new television contract for Nascar.

C.A.R.T then through some mismanagement of its own files for bankruptcy. This time however competitiors were not allowed to prurchase and put the bankrupted company out of business.

In the three years since, The partners have brought Champ Car back from the brink. They have done what they said they would. They lowered ticket prices and have made family entertainment the primary focus. They have rebuilt the ladder series, They have ordered a new car that will improve racing and be the next item in a series of items that have reduced costs to owners. With the new car costs will be reduced to half of what they were in C.A.R.T and will be 75% of what they are in the IRL.

Now what has IRL and Nascar done?  The IRL ladder series is failing. When owners were extorted with Indy test dates they passed. Champ Car's with the new Swift Atlantic car doubled.

The IRL car count is falling. Champ Car's with the new Panoz DP01 is increasing.

The Indy 500 has suffered the ten worst years of television ratings since the split. Only with Danica's 2005 campaign could they even approach a Nascar rating.

The field at Indy last year was on the verge of not making rthe traditional 33. It had to be fleshed out with aging retirees in cars that were not safe for the track.

The competition in the IRL's first year in  spec format  saw a drastic reduction in competition.

Contrast that with Champ Car that has seen two years of increased competition and the best season in years this year.

On The Nascar side. Brian France has adopted some IRL ideas and the result so far have been Buschwhacking  nearly bankrupting that series and others in Nextel Cup that have reduced the competition as well.

Prices to fans are at record highs despite record television revenue.

Costs to owners have skyrocketed in all series and return back to them have remained the same. Think back to Dan Gurney's whit paper that described the conditions that  created C.A.R.T in the first place. 

This with limited testing created the large multi team owners.  Now a handfull of owners own the majority of the field is owned by them. As result they suck most the money out of the series. Coupled with new tire and aero rules. The amount of different winners are at record lows.

Now you contend that we live in fear of a closer IRL/Nascar relationship. That maybe so. At least I do. The results of that relationship would further reduce racing in America.

If Champ Car leaves the open wheel scene. Then street and road races leave The IRL schedule. All thats left is open wheel racing playing  second fiddle to Nascar or a few years then finaly failing.

Now Jim Hunter and the editiors of this site, will relay the position that Nascar wants to see all series prosper because its in Nascar's and everybody's best interest.

The premise is 100 pct accurate.

Nascar/ISC's intent is not. It is Nascar's intent to eliminate Champ Car. It is Nascar's intent to control the size and growth of openwheel racing through The IRL.

Now if Champ Car does disappear. It will be another case where mediocrity prevails. Open wheel racing will permanently be limited to a minor league existence if no just vanish in a few years. Racing fans will be limited in choice and the interest in racing as a sport will be reduced.

You will be happy though.

BIG WHOOOOP

Chevy & Toyota Race at HONDA's track in Japan.

Mercedees won the INDY 500 in 94 then could not get up to speed in 95

SOON Toyota will be racing in NASCAR on every track that they run on.

BIG WHOPTYDOO

IndyFanDan:

BIG WHOOOOP

 

Chevy & Toyota Race at HONDA's track in Japan.

Mercedees won the INDY 500 in 94 then could not get up to speed in 95

SOON Toyota will be racing in NASCAR on every track that they run on.

BIG WHOPTYDOO

 

What Chevrolet raced at Motegi or Suzuka this year??

GM left The IRL.

Roger Penske won The Indy 500 in exploiting a rule and with tech that GM felt was propriatory. That was on reason why GM left C.A.R.T top help form The IRL. George then stabbed them in the back when he let Toyota  and Honda in the series. Toyota and GM both left citing lack of ROI and Honda keeps renigging on its promise to since it lacks ROI as well.

If owners thought it was expensive before. Once Toyota and Honda arrive their costs will double.

TRY STICKING TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND

We are not talking about cost, we are not talking about who stabbed whom.

We are talking about Honda, Toyota, Chevy, Ford, Ferrari, BMW and who ever else engine wise you wish to bring up running on tracks that are concidered owned by a competitor in the engine world. It happens every day, all over the globe. This is not new to the IRL world. Stop trying to make a big deal out of a nothing issue, then try to change the subject to cost issue when some one calls you on it. If you want to talk about cost of engines start another thread.

IndyFanDan:

TRY STICKING TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND

We are not talking about cost, we are not talking about who stabbed whom.

We are talking about Honda, Toyota, Chevy, Ford, Ferrari, BMW and who ever else engine wise you wish to bring up running on tracks that are concidered owned by a competitor in the engine world. It happens every day, all over the globe. This is not new to the IRL world. Stop trying to make a big deal out of a nothing issue, then try to change the subject to cost issue when some one calls you on it. If you want to talk about cost of engines start another thread.

Lose the attitude Cochise , You don't have the game.

The subject raised was  Honda being allowed to run in the streets of Detroit. The most pro union anti japanese car demographic in America. The city which has seen devasting job losses to non union Japanese competition.

The question at hand is that would an American Manufacturer be allowed to hold an exclusive race in front of Honda/Toyota/Nissan world headquarters and the answer to that is no.

 Series races with American manufacturers that have occured in Japan were because Japanese manufacturers were participants. The exception would be one exhibition race.

That's also one reason why Champ Car is not allowed to race at Suzuka or Motegi.

Yet you in your mindless loyalty just rationalize the whole situation away. Its not an insult to the workers in Detroit. The fact that it is organized by the very man that you despised in a form of racing you despise  and afent very good at either just gets over looked.

Rationalization is a better drug than morphine.

Gee, I didn't relize that there was a level one must reach before being allowd to jump in on a thread. When it comes to mindless you rank at the top

after every thing you said, weather you wish to see it or not is competing engine mfgs. have race on every track you can think of.

The fact that Detroit is the capital of the major US car mfg. means nothing. They have been racing on a rack about an hour away for a couple of years now. As far as Unions & the big three they built their beds, they made their beds, not they have to lay in them and they just don't like it.

IndyFanDan:

Gee, I didn't relize that there was a level one must reach before being allowd to jump in on a thread. When it comes to mindless you rank at the top

after everything you said, weather you wish to see it or not is competing engine mfgs. have race on every track you can think of.

The fact that Detroit is the capital of the major US car mfg. means nothing. They have been racing on a rack about an hour away for a couple of years now. As far as Unions & the big three they built their beds, they made their beds, not they have to lay in them and they just don't like it.

Let's try getting back to the asserted premise.

Which is if  an American manufacturer sponsored series would be allowed  to hold a race in Japan's auto capital or at a Japanese manufacturer owned facility?

The anwser to that is no.

Therefore comes the irony as Mav originaly stated.

That fact that Honda is not only allowed to race in America but in the nations auto manufacturing capital without reciprocal opportunity is the irony.

Whether or not GM/Ford andMercedes have raced in both countries is irellevant to the question  about reciprocal opportunity. The only time they have raced there is with Japanese manufacturer participation.

Then the add to that is that all the while the gomertard faithfull screamed about an all oval, all american, Indy centered series.

You end up being supported as a welfare state of Honda, running the old CART schedule, with the majority of the top ten being foreign drivers owned by the same CART owners that you despised.

All the while taking the Indy 500 into the tank.

Rationalization is a drug, so shoot up.